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Tom Leeson

Joined Mar 30, 2023

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Last activity Dec 29, 2023

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ACTIVITY OVERVIEW

Latest activity by Tom Leeson

Tom Leeson created a post,

Post Q&A - Help center and community

We have a wonderful fantastic but old version of Zendesk here:
https://algofuturestrader.zendesk.com 

This is an awesome help desk and we use Chat and Talk  and the help desk is a life saver for all of use internal and external: https://algofuturestrader.zendesk.com/hc/en-us

We use the classic web widget  on our website and the help center  -  its simple quick and perfect for our end users to quickly get support or find an article.  We want to keep this we do not want to lose this -we do not want to have to use the new widget  and lose the classic.

We also have these:

http://microtrends.zendesk.com/

http://algotradingsystems.zendesk.com/

This is a new flavour of Zendesk  - it does have a help center but we dont care if we delete all and start again.

We also have this for the future to add:

http://alphawebtrader.zendesk.com/

Question

We think it would be better if we use multibrand Zendesk - but the questions is then how to get all these into 1 account.?

Should we cancel: http://algotradingsystems.zendesk.com/
then upgrade https://algofuturestrader.zendesk.com
then add these as new domain/brands
http://algotradingsystems.zendesk.com/
http://alphawebtrader.zendesk.com/\

or is there a magical way to make this happen?

for example specify a main ZD Account then have the other existing linked to it  - via ZD tech support etc?

Edited Apr 07, 2023 · Tom Leeson

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Tom Leeson commented,

Community comment Feedback - Admin Center

its total tosh agreed!  way too complex takes flaming ages

and then they answer hours later sometimes and hit you with a canned answered . oh you are not online - will close ticket...

TBH the chat thing is quite useless - takes you in circles

much better for what really works time and tested: 

create new request  >    search articles  > non there ?  ok submit ticket with topic area/ billing or product area

horrifically bad support center for a company that sells SAAS.,. it really doenst add up

View comment · Posted Mar 31, 2023 · Tom Leeson

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Tom Leeson created a post,

Post Feedback - Admin Center

Getting in contact with billing directly is impossible

Ordering  - 1/10
The in app upgrade system is poor and lets you order the wrong period without warning and confirming...

Service  - 1/10

  1. you cannot talk or contact a person in billing you cannot send them a message  -  
  2. you cannot create a ticket and put topic billing - that would save hours and hours !!!
  3. you have to go in circles  through bots which open multiple tickets so it seems
  4. someone might answer you in your absence and tell you they will contact finance and to wait for their reply
  5. finance may write to you  several days later using a canned script answer and close the ticket on you citing companuy policy....!
    you then have to spend more days playing tennis and waiting for an update -  we are refused help with ordering and stuck on the wrong plan and told tough luck!

    Zendesk uses really the worst support system and support structure i have ever seen -    how can this irony exist?

    Zendesk billing finance is a BPO in Manila -  for 1 reason only to save cost... By the time they get back to you the information is all lost and misunderstood so then you have to escalate and threaten action  and make posts like these until its escalated and someone the US side of the fence can mediate on your behalf!

    Zendesk Billing Support it's made impossibly hard !  if we were not entrenched with years of data and tickets we would close all zendesk systems and go somewhere else now!!!  the cost of ownership days and days lost in communication trying to get assistance!

Edited Apr 04, 2023 · Tom Leeson

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Tom Leeson created a post,

Post Feedback - Admin Center
  1. I thought we were forced to upgrade to get talk and voice  - as it didnt work before in the essentials
  2. we selected a monthly upgrade but we make a mistake going back and forth reading and comparing plans and  it went back on to annual as  we upgraded
  3. we did not know we had made a mistake until  surprise bill  we were not expecting arrived so we tried in vane to get in touch with billing and had to wait days after many tickets sent
  4. In addition we got none of the services delivered no talk no text - and no one will fix since then we are using another zendesk instance from old... we have 3 zendesks.
  5. it took 3 days - we got sent a canned answer from a manila help center who are powerless to assist!!!" 

    Ivy | FSS Revenue Operations Analyst | APAC - Manila" 

    who are working off a script - basically got told tough luck by Zendesk people and are stuck on the wrong sub and cannot change seats for agents or use the growth plan 

 

Mar 29, 2023, 9:14 PM CDT

(8:59:27 PM) Z Bot: Hi there.
(8:59:28 PM) Z Bot: Need help with your order?

CONNECT TO SALES
(8:59:35 PM) Web User alpha@algosignaltrader.com__zendesk__105…: incorrect billing and subscription
(8:59:43 PM) Z Bot: Let me connect you to a Sales team member.
(9:00:41 PM) Web User alpha@algosignaltrader.com__zendesk__105…: we wanted team monthly for 2 agents for monthly and somehow got the annual
(9:01:19 PM) Marvin: Hi, Tom! This is Marvin from Zendesk Sales.
(9:01:25 PM) Web User alpha@algosignaltrader.com__zendesk__105…: Hi Marvin
(9:01:31 PM) Web User alpha@algosignaltrader.com__zendesk__105…: my power might go out
(9:01:49 PM) Web User alpha@algosignaltrader.com__zendesk__105…: scheduled outage
(9:01:50 PM) Marvin: The plan you are trying to purchase is Zendesk Suite Team?
(9:01:54 PM) Web User alpha@algosignaltrader.com__zendesk__105…: so excuse me if that happens
(9:02:00 PM) Web User alpha@algosignaltrader.com__zendesk__105…: So we wanted to use the Team
(9:02:03 PM) Web User alpha@algosignaltrader.com__zendesk__105…: for 2 agents
(9:02:16 PM) Web User alpha@algosignaltrader.com__zendesk__105…: and somehow i messed up and got annual instead of monthly
(9:03:01 PM) Web User alpha@algosignaltrader.com__zendesk__105…: i i thought i needed to upgrade yesterday to get chat and various items
(9:03:44 PM) Web User alpha@algosignaltrader.com__zendesk__105…: so i did that and today i see a charge for 973.32
(9:04:01 PM) Web User alpha@algosignaltrader.com__zendesk__105…: look at the sub it thinkis was feb
(9:04:07 PM) Web User alpha@algosignaltrader.com__zendesk__105…: so not sure what happened tbh
(9:04:16 PM) Marvin: Since this is a billing concern, I will transfer you to our Finance team for the possibility of changing to monthly. Please expect a response from them by email.
(9:04:26 PM) Web User alpha@algosignaltrader.com__zendesk__105…: ok np

unable to speak to a human in a call and had to wait a few days later!!!!

 

Your request (#11380406) has been updated. To add additional comments, reply to this email.

Ivy Masilungan (Zendesk Support)

Mar 31, 2023, 2:03 AM CDT

Hello, Tom!
 
Good day to you! This is Ivy from Zendesk Finance and I'd be happy to assist.
 
Upon checking, your account has recently renewed last February 1, 2023 for the billing service period 02/01/2023 to 01/31/2024 (February 1, 2023 to January 31, 2024) and you have reached out to downgrade your subscription to monthly.
 
My sincere apologies, but we are unable to provide your mid-term downgrade. Subscription downgrades may only take effect upon renewal as per the terms of our Master Subscription Agreement. Unfortunately, your request occurred during your subscription term and cannot be honored at this time. Per our Master Subscription Agreement:

SECTION 4. BILLING, PLAN MODIFICATIONS AND PAYMENTS
 

4.3 Downgrades. You may not downgrade Your Service Plan or reduce the number of Agents under any Service Plan during Your Subscription Term. If You desire to downgrade Your Service Plan or reduce the number of Agents under any Service Plan for a subsequent Subscription Term, You must provide Zendesk with thirty (30) days advance written notice prior to the end of Your then current Subscription Term. Downgrading Your Service Plan may cause loss of content, features, or capacity of the Service as available to You under Your Account, and Zendesk does not accept any liability for such loss.

 
I see that you have already downgraded your subscription of which our system has automatically made effective on your next renewal, February 1, 2024 in accordance with our downgrade policy as stated above.
 
I hope this clarifies. I will mark this ticket as solved for now but please don't hesitate to reach out again for further assistance.
 
Sincerely,
 

Ivy | FSS Revenue Operations Analyst | APAC - Manila

 

our response

 

Without Prejudice
 
"Good day to you! This is Ivy from Zendesk Finance and I'd be happy to assist.
 Upon checking, your account has recently renewed last February 1, 2023 for the billing service period 02/01/2023 to 01/31/2024 (February 1, 2023 to January 31, 2024) and you have reached out to downgrade your subscription to monthly "
 
Hi
 
Thank you for your response, sorry no this is not the correct version of events you have written to me with, please bare with me and understand what happened was a mistake in the ordering process not a change of mind.
 
No.
"i did not reach out to change my sub to monthly after suddenly deciding i wanted a monthly sub later to downgrade"
 
I reached out as soon as i saw my mistake in the ordering process - due to the surprise bill amount for annual not monthly via paypal.  I reported my mistake and asked for assistance to rectify my mistake in ordering annual instead of my selection of monthly.
 
Yes.
I did change the active sub after i had realized the mistake was made after my report, to see if  i could fix my mistake. as you can see also that would apply in 2024  but that did not work
 
What happened was:
As i upgraded to unlock talk and text as i thought i had to. 
I selected monthly  and then somehow lost that and got annual, maybe it was because i  clicked back and forth to read before committing top upgrade and lost the setting of monthly. 
There was not way to confirm this pre buying and no post pay notice we saw and did not realize until paypal sent me the bill and so next day we acted.
 
Why did i upgrade?
I upgraded to get talks and chat and still does not work!!!
As you can see below in the image... this is being worked on.. 
but we dont even need it now we are using a different zendesk voice and chat with our other account:

 

 

Note:
 
We are not a big company and that budget is required for other costs - it was a nasty surprise to get that bill for annual. We are trying to release products and build them self funded and hope in time to make a profit and we chose Zendesk as our partner to do this. we hope then Zendesk can understand and assist our stupid mistake with the order process and then address that part to make sure others don't fall Arry of the same pitfall of the Zendesk upgrade system.
 
Note:
I do not want to do a PayPal dispute or do charge backs with the Amex credit card  for non delivery of services.
But i have to tell you this s what we will do and provide them this proof of your non delivery of services and the fact you would not assist by direct mediation.
 
 i do not want to post reviews that tell how we reported our ordering process mistake and were told it was tough luck, i want to post a review to our community post to tell them how you saved us from our clumsy mistake and then got us on the right plan we needed to - and i hope to work with your support team to get our services running soon !
 
Please let me know if you will assist or not assist....
 
UPDATE 10th April REFUNDED!   BATTLE WON
 

12 days later  - i won the "fight"  against Zendesk  billing and got my mistake rectified  - sad to use the word "fight"

ZENDESK PRODUCT

I would recommend the zendesk product without hesitation!

BUT!  be very careful when ordering!!! in the upgrade admin center you can get caught out  it can switch back to annual instead of monthly and you will not know its ordered annual - then you are caught out  - it almost feels like a scam, like be abandoned and ripped off,  they got you and wont give you back the money. They will fight you for it regardless if you are honest,  the billing finance people will get in contact days later and tell you no midterm downgrade refunds - policy..

HERE IS ALL THE REST OF IT

 

  • Tom LeesonMarch 31, 2023 07:42

    Posted in public so people can see this issue!

    Zendesk Finance billing callcenter in manila will not assist an order process mistake – Zendesk help
    https://support.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/5545764085530--Zendesk-Finance-billing-callcenter-in-manila-will-not-assist-an-order-process-mistake

    You need to fix this ASAP!

  •  
    Tom LeesonMarch 31, 2023 08:47

    1) it's not possible to directly contact billing in zendesk support
    2) you have to go through hoops of robots and then get answered by another dept who then tell you wrong dept will get finance to contact
    3)so even though we immediately reported the issue it took days and by the time finance considered it a mid term downgrade request not an order mistake.
    4) So then finance contact and then say no mid term downgrades, and close the ticket as they are a scripted call center with no power - only to close the case and move on
    thats how they get paid.
    5) where they have gone wrong with this scammy tendency is they did not deliver the services!
    To deal with the real billing you have to do a chargeback to get the real people to step up and deal with the issue

  •  
    Jellyn SantosMarch 31, 2023 11:49
    Hi Tom, 
     
    Good day to you! This is Jellyn from Zendesk Finance.
     
    I completely understand your frustration. I’m sure I’d feel the same way. Please accept my genuine apologies as you weren't satisfied with the result of your support request. Let me assist you on this matter. 
     
    Upon looking into your account with subdomain  algotradingsystems (Zendesk Number ZD00200703), I see that you've upgraded the subscription to 2 agent seats of Zendesk Suite team last March 29, 2023. On the same day, you reached out to us about this concern. To assist you in fixing the account, may I kindly ask for reconfirmation if your preferred subscription is 2 agent seats of Zendesk Suite Team on a monthly subscription terms which is $118 per renewal.  
     
    Looking forward to hearing from you soon and I'd be happy to help. 
     
     
    Regards, 

    Jellyn Santos| RevOps Customer Support Sr. Analyst- Manila
    Billing & subscription questions? Click here!

  •  
    Tom LeesonMarch 31, 2023 11:51

    Hi

    yes please "2 agent seats of Zendesk Suite Team on a monthly subscription terms which is $118 per renewal"

    many thanks

    Tom

  •  
    Jellyn SantosMarch 31, 2023 12:23
    Hi Tom, 
     
    Thanks for your response. From here, I'll now proceed in escalating your request to our Renewals team for further approval. 
     
    Appreciate your patience while waiting for our feedback. If you have any other concerns, please feel free to update this ticket. 
     
     
    Regards, 

    Jellyn Santos| RevOps Customer Support Sr. Analyst- Manila
    Billing & subscription questions? Click here!

  •  
    Kristine A.March 31, 2023 20:12

    Request #11380436 "There is a problem with your Tal..." was closed and merged into this request. Last comment in request #11380436:

    Hello Tom,

    I hope all is well with you. Thank you again for your patience on this matter. Upon checking my resources, the ticket number 11380406 that you have open with the Finance team has been escalated for further review. No worries on this. The Finance team is now looking on what they can do to help to get things sorted. To consolidate our efforts I will merge our ticket to the open Finance ticket. For additional inquiries regarding this matter, kindly please reply to ticket number 11380406.

    Rest assured, that our team is working on this for you. They will send you an update as soon as possible.

    Have a great weekend!

    Kind Regards,

    Kristine
    Customer Advocacy Specialist

  •  
    Tom LeesonTuesday at 08:08

    Hi

    1) Zendesk Chat/ Messaging works now
    https://algotradingsystems.zendesk.com/chat/agent#home
    2)
    https://algotradingsystems.zendesk.com/admin/channels/talk_and_email/talk
    Talk Voice does not work yet "There is a problem with your Talk account. Please contact our Customer Service team."

    Note: If it easier for tech to delete the existing algotradingsystems.zendesk.com and start from fresh install please do so -we do not mind if all the data is lost -

    3)No paypal refunds yet
    4)no subscriptions changes still waiting..
    5)Note: The PayPal Chargeback was already launched last week before the above actions to assist, so that might throw a curve ball into the proceedings - the Amex Credit Card Chargeback is paused.

  •  
    Jellyn SantosThursday at 22:01
    Hi Tom,
     
    This is to give you an update that we are currently working in your request to fix the subscription. I've already received the approval to proceed on the necessary actions. However, please be advised that our system will not allow us to process any refund if there's an existing chargeback. 
     
    To further check your concern in Talk, may I kindly ask a screenshot of error message?
     
     
    Regards, 

    Jellyn Santos| RevOps Customer Support Sr. Analyst- Manila
    Billing & subscription questions? Click here!

  •  
    Tom LeesonFriday at 00:30

    1) "However, please be advised that our system will not allow us to process any refund if there's an existing chargeback"
    ok thank you so i will provide paypal your intent to resolve so they can cancel that.

    2) The same problem exists as day 1- as above as reported and still has not been fixed.
    https://algotradingsystems.zendesk.com/admin/channels/talk_and_email/talk
    "There is a problem with your Talk account. Please contact our Customer Service team."

    Due to the ongoing problems and the fact we still have not been delivered what was order we are unable to use the ZD Help desk and instead use this one - which has chat and talk
    https://algofuturestrader.zendesk.com/hc/en-us

    Question
    Should cancel this one http://algotradingsystems.zendesk.com/

    Then we can keep the helpdesk articles here:
    https://algofuturestrader.zendesk.com/hc/en-us
    and then start again and add 2 other domains:
    http://algotradingsystems.zendesk.com/
    http://alphawebtrader.zendesk.com/

  •  
    Jellyn SantosYesterday at 17:13
    Hi Tom, 
     
    I hope you're doing well. After validating your request, we're making a one-off exception on this even though our Master Service Agreement doesn't allow us to make any refunds. Kindly be advised that $925.77 has been refunded back to the card on file and it should reflect within the next 7-14 days, depending on your bank. See attached negative invoice that will serve as your credit memo due to adjustment request. Moreover, your account with subdomain algotradingsystems (Zendesk Number ZD00200703) is now fixed with monthly billing of 2 agent seats of Zendesk Suite Team, $118 per month.  
     

    3.5 No Refunds. Except for Your termination rights under Section 3.3, if You elect to terminate Your subscription to a Service or cancel Your Account prior to the end of Your then current Subscription Term, no refunds or credits for Subscription Charges or other fees or payments will be provided to You.

     

    4.3 Downgrades. You may not downgrade Your Service Plan or reduce the number of Agents during any Subscription Term. If You desire to downgrade Your Service Plan or reduce the number of Agents under any Service Plan for a subsequent Subscription Term, You must provide Zendesk with thirty (30) days written notice prior to the end of Your then current Subscription Term. You must demote any downgraded Agents prior to the beginning of the subsequent Subscription Term. Downgrading Your Service Plan may cause loss of content, features, or capacity of the Service as available to You under Your Account, and Zendesk is not responsible for such loss.

     
    To further check your other issue related to Talk functionality, I already created a separate ticket 11413060 to escalate this concern to our Advocacy team for further investigation. Someone from their team will be reaching out to you for an update. 
     
    If you have any other concerns with your billing, please feel free to update this ticket and I'd be happy to assist. 
     
     
    Regards, 

    Jellyn Santos| RevOps Customer Support Sr. Analyst- Manila
    Billing & subscription questions? Click here!

  •  
    Tom LeesonToday at 11:10

    Hi

    Confirmed refund received - better late then never!
    5/10 is your grade 10/10 it would have been if

    1) services were provided and delivered
    2) you provided a better conclusion as below

    NOTE:
    As the audit proves above,. this was not a downgrade and mid term...refund.. requiring an exception. This was an order system problem rectified for a customer befuddled by your bad order system design..!

    1)CHANGE YOUR POLICY!
    add in a clause for this exact thing!
    your system has a design flaw and your policy makers are not aware.

    PLEASE MAKE SURE THE REAL ZENDESK MANAGEMENT GETS THIS!

    RECAP
    1) This was not a downgrade - this was a wrong order rectification due to your website design flaw and order process design flaw!!! look above at the audit proof!
    2) The services are so late we are using a different solution..!

    FEEDBACK
    What you should have said was something like this:

    Dear customer
    We understand the problem you had with the ordering system and are sorry for the misunderstanding for your situation and delay in rectifying the problem, we are happy to inform you this has now refunded and corrected the subscription for you.
    In regards to the non delivery of services we are very sorry for this, we are glad to inform you these services are now working as ordered. We have refunded the 2 weeks off your first month as you were unable to use the services you purchased -take this as token of our appreciation and our wish for your ongoing custom in the future - all customers not matter how big or small are our utmost priority at all times and we thank for giving us a chance to pout this right and make you happy again with zendesk.

    please don't hesitate to contact us for any reason at all!

    Love zendesk

    2) YOU NEED TO FIX THIS!

    From within the admin center - billing -subscriptions when someone is upgrading
    1) When selecting monthly and a user decides to look at the details before clicking upgrade do not change it back to annual - have a state maintain the selection so the user does not click upgrade and get the wrong selection when going to and fro on the browser!
    2)when they place the order - popup a summary
    Annual sub are you sure you want to place this subscription etc? click here Yes/Cancel
    3)When the sub is places send the full details on screen and and send them an email
    have on the screen - a was this a mistake click here to contact billing... and it sends to you immediately so there is not fun and games chasing your attention.

    LESSONS TO LEARN

    If a customer falls foul of the current setup and contacts you as i did
    do not fob them off, do not try to scam and keep/steal their money!
    be honest and put the customer first rectify the mistake
    make the customer feel you value them not that they are a piece of flotsam and lucky to be dealt with. Tell them it was a joy to assist them and you will be adored not be hated and lose customers and get bad press.!

    Thank you for doing your Job!

    salamat po

    Tom

 

And the services?

  • Got chat
  • Still not got Talk had to open a new ticket 12 days after the order!!!! 

 

Edited Apr 10, 2023 · Tom Leeson

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Tom Leeson commented,

CommentSubscriptions and licenses

the finance team  - uses Spin on the truth to avoid assisting us 

Instead of saying i hear you made had difficulties with teh ordering process and got the wrong plan - 

they  say - we hear you want to downgrade your plan  - so they do not have to do anything due to company policy...

DISGUSTING!!!  HORRENDOUS!

The ordering process is like a scam!  - we got stuck on the wrong one by mistake and now Zendeskl tells us tough luck..

you cant speak to a human or someone who can even communicate in proper English as their first langauge  - this is horrific!   We have to wait days to get a message from an outsourced  PBO center in Manila with people working from a script who do not have the knowledge or power to assist and are told flatly to write a reply to avoid assisting us/.!!!

We will see what the reply is: next step

Paypal charge back and Credit Card charge back 

 

View comment · Posted Mar 31, 2023 · Tom Leeson

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Tom Leeson commented,

CommentSubscriptions and licenses

The finance are based in the Phillipines  Manila and do not understand the converstaion and problem they have refused to help!

 

  1. we were forced to upgrade to get talk and voice
  2. we selected a monthly upgrade but we make a mistake going back and forth reading and comparing plans and  it went back on to annual as  we upgraded
  3. we did not know we had made a mistake until  surprise bill  we were not expecting arrived
  4. we got none of the services delivered no talk no text -   they do not even want to provide the services we paid for - talk and text
  5. we then got told tough luck by Zendesk people and are stuck on the wrong sub and cannot change seats for agents or use the other plan we now want

 

"Upon checking, your account has recently renewed last February 1, 2023 for the billing service period 02/01/2023 to 01/31/2024 (February 1, 2023 to January 31, 2024) and you have reached out to downgrade your subscription to monthly."
 
My sincere apologies, but we are unable to provide your mid-term downgrade. Subscription downgrades may only take effect upon renewal as per the terms of our Main Subscription Agreement. Unfortunately, your request occurred during your subscription term and cannot be honored at this time. Per our Main Subscription Agreement:
Without Prejudice
 
"Good day to you! This is Ivy from Zendesk Finance and I'd be happy to assist.
 Upon checking, your account has recently renewed last February 1, 2023 for the billing service period 02/01/2023 to 01/31/2024 (February 1, 2023 to January 31, 2024) and you have reached out to downgrade your subscription to monthly "
 
Hi
 
Thank you for your response, sorry no this is not the correct version of events you have written to me with, please bare with me and understand what happened was a mistake in the ordering process not a change of mind.
 
No.
"i did not reach out to change my sub to monthly after suddenly deciding i wanted a monthly sub later to downgrade"
 
I reached out as soon as i saw my mistake in the ordering process - due to the surprise bill amount for annual not monthly via paypal.  I reported my mistake and asked for assistance to rectify my mistake in ordering annual instead of my selection of monthly.
 
Yes.
I did change the active sub after i had realized the mistake was made after my report, to see if  i could fix my mistake. as you can see also that would apply in 2024  but that did not work
 
What happened was:
As i upgraded to unlock talk and text as i thought i had to. 
I selected monthly  and then somehow lost that and got annual, maybe it was because i  clicked back and forth to read before committing top upgrade and lost the setting of monthly. 
There was not way to confirm this pre buying and no post pay notice we saw and did not realize until paypal sent me the bill and so next day we acted.
 
Why did i upgrade?
I upgraded to get talks and chat and still does not work!!!
As you can see below in the image... this is being worked on.. 
but we dont even need it now we are using a different zendesk voice and chat with our other account: 
 
 
So please can you assist do the right thing and help us rectify our mistake
 
 

 

 

View comment · Posted Mar 31, 2023 · Tom Leeson

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Tom Leeson commented,

CommentSubscriptions and licenses

I need to talk to a human and cannot find one.
I have been charged for annual instead of monthly during an upgrade 

I did a  chat to sales via chat who said finance will email... still waiting..
the link above is a dead link :-) ?

your support center is so difficult to use its unreal - cant i just create a new ticket for a problem and specify its a billing issue? 

example here new ticket  - area billing..
 Requests – Zendesk help

View comment · Edited Mar 30, 2023 · Tom Leeson

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